[WSF-Discuss] [Communication commission discussion] Re: [Debate-List] Re: 'Egyptian ruler General Abd al-Fattah al-Sisi is a Jew'

Ran Greenstein rangreen at sn.apc.org
Fri May 2 08:05:17 CDT 2014


Of course, saying someone is Jewish is not antisemitism. Using someone's
real or imaginary Jewish identity as an instrument of political abuse is
antisemitism, however. And worse, it leads to dead-end politics, where
blood links and ethnic heritage - whether genuine or fabricated makes no
difference - replace analysis. Already in 1967, many writers and activists,
most notably Sadik Jalal al-Azm (in his Self-Criticism after the Defeat,
originally from 1968 and translated into English in 2011) pointed out the
role of such magical thinking (based on blood, superstition, conspiracy
theories) in making Arab political forces blind to reality, enamoured with
their own rhetoric and therefore unable to meet the Israeli challenge. The
rise of the armed Palestinian resistance and calls for mass mobilization
and popular organization were a response to such idiotic and self-defeating
rhetoric prevalent before the war. It would be sad and disastrous
politically if Middle Eastern activists went back to that time.




On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Francine Mestrum <mestrum at skynet.be> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Let me briefly intervene in this debate. I first decided not to, but Paola
> mentions some serious points. So, let me briefly state this:
>
> 1)      I do not see how saying someone is a Jew can be seen as
> anti-Semitism. Wherever this article comes from and however wrong it may
> be, classifying everything as ‘anti-semitism’ is as dangerous a game as
> anti-semitism itself.
>
> 2)      Paola’s point I want to react on is political islam. This has
> been discussed and not discussed within the IC and WSF. And indeed some
> leftwing people think they should embrace it. I hope this debate is not
> finished and we should take it up again as a very important and also
> dangerous issue.
>
> Best,
>
> Francine
>
>
>
> *Van:* Paola Manduca [mailto:paolamanduca at gmail.com]
> *Verzonden:* 02 May 2014 14:22
> *Aan:* Azril Bacal
> *CC:* Ran Greenstein; Jai Sen; Discussion list about the WSF; Post Social
> Movements Riseup; Post Debate; Post Activism News Network; Antonio Martins;
> Chico Whitaker; communication-commission-discussion; Erik Lindhult;
> vmanzano at us.es; KG Hammar; Bo Nylund; ograjew at isps.org.br; rodostaven;
> Peter Waterman; nigd-list at nigd.org; Hedvig Ekerwald; Kaj Hakanson
> *Onderwerp:* [Communication commission discussion] Re: [Debate-List] Re:
> [WSF-Discuss] 'Egyptian ruler General Abd al-Fattah al-Sisi is a Jew'
>
>
>
> friends, I have no intention to be involved in bck and forth... I agrre
> that the issue of racism and by extension ansemitism or anti cristianyty
> or.. are not trivial
>
> ythis I staied on the facts,else one could easlily reserve argumentation
> for a book or two. I am not qualified and have an other occupation.
>
>
>
>
>
> so my puck and my chalelnge ios to all to express on the facts of the sisi
> supremacy, dictatorship, popular recognition... I care see this openly
> idscussed step by step.
>
> seocndd point is a genral debate on democracy (whose and which one should
> start saying,  this tto in the facts itsì brings on the ground in 2014 in
> each context= and consnesus by voting and consensus by "acclamation" Twhich
> reminds me of popa Paul beeing acclamed at his death...saint noow, saint
> now and ...now almost is!
>
>
>
> excuse the joke but only alludes to the fact tha tsome or all of our
> societies have changed a lot since equality fraternity and sinc ethe first
> democratic consitutions and we skipp sometimes seeing it because is very
> fast and often purposefully kept hidden from genrla public.
>
>
>
> third point re to the comment of left and political islam going hand by
> hand that  was made in one of the mails. I strongly believe that is a god
> argument for conversation in what somebody else defined  "a mostly leftist
> list" (and I warn about the most, as I am uncertain whose else is in it..
> But, at least in line of principles  it is may be time to discuss what from
> outside is seen hand-by--hand in terms of real things on the ground , and
> if you wish to give contribution on the specific egyptian experience during
> and mostly after the !"arab spring" it would be very welcome, always in
> general terms.
>
>
>
>
>
> saluti
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 3:43 AM, Azril Bacal <bazril1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Paola,
>
> Let me humbly disagree with you: antisemitism and hate propaganda are not
> "easy" arguments.
>
> No need to diminish our "heated" reaction in order to address the
> important issue you raise.
>
> Both issues are important and deserve "heavy" argumentation on its own
> terms.
>
> Why not take your principled concern with important matters, and proceed
> to discuss where majority rule is equivalent to democratic rule?
>
> Weren`t Mussolini and Hitler elected and ruled with a "majority" vote?
>
> I am confident that most participants on this list do object and condemn
> Sissi`r rule on similar grounds: that he is a despotic military dictator.
>
> From my own limited angle, I would not equate the fundamentalism of the
> muslim brotherhood with the egyptian progressive, left and youth social
> movements, which were and remain a significant part of the Arab Spring.
>
> Thanks Paola, for expanding the scope of our debate beyond our previous
> "easy" argumentation, concening an "irrelevant" genealogical issue as hate
> propaganda, in what Jai correctly describes as a higly infected region of
> the world.
>
> Fraternally yours
>
> Azril
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Paola Manduca <paolamanduca at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> dear all
>
>  I can only take notice that so much warmth of easy arguments are raised
> about the genealogy of Sissi and the antisemitic vein that posting what is
> a controversial article would reveal,
>
> and nothing at all is commented about the general in command and
> presidential candidate, his facts and his promises.
>
>
>
> frankly, if the first article was a fake and deserved such attention,
> instead it seems that all knowledgeable people from the mediterranean area
> are quite self confining in taking up the real issue of facts, which
> definitively is of concern for a list of discussion of the social forum.
>
>
>
> I phrase it again for all contributions:
>
> how do we see Sissi role, what we understand being his alliances, his
> internal supporters and what about his external and internal politics...
>
>
>
> after all Egypt is the largest and most populated Arab country...obviously
> also the one with the largest popular support for a political Islam party
> (as by elections) which now is outlawed and where 1000 people were
> sentenced to death (some 500 commuted in life sentence) in the last 2
> months, under Sissi rule,
>
> Egypt is also now the country, under Sissi rule, where a majoritarian
> party was   outlawed, whit dripping daily additions of movements, where
> journalists are imprisoned and other were killed and the press is, to say
> the least, censured if not closed.......... may  it deserves some
> consideration and may be worth to open a debate about this?
>
>
>
> stay well
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Ran Greenstein <rangreen at sn.apc.org>
> wrote:
>
> I think you simply do not understand (being an outsider to these issues)
> how completely insane - politically speaking - is the notion of a Jewish
> military Chief of Staff in Egypt, or the notion that his mother was sent
> from Morocco to Egypt by the Mossad (presumably 60-70  years ago) so that
> her son would one day become the ruler of Egypt. This is equivalent to the
> Birthers believing that a notice about Obama's birth was planted in
> Hawaiian newspapers back in 1961 to allow him to become president of the
> USA in 2008...
>
>
>
> But, beyond all this, surely you should be able to see that such claims
> are an antisemitic tool (and have nothing to do with anti-Zionism or
> opposition to Israeli policies). If the issue were opposition to Israel and
> its policies, why invoke the Rothschilds, or the notion that the Saudi
> ruling House consists of 'crypto-Jews'. No need for a degree in Middle East
> studies to see where all this comes from and where it leads. Even to raise
> questions whether this is true is to grant respectability to such utter
> rubbish.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Jai Sen <jai.sen at cacim.net> wrote:
>
> Thursday, 1 May 2014
>
>
>
> Azril, and others
>
>             Please try and hear me out.  It's obviously a complicated and
> delicate subject.
>
> I explained in my post that I was doing so “not as a comment on whether
> the ruler of Egypt should or should not be of a religion other than Islam,
> but because of what seem immediately to me to be the [inflammatory]
> implications of this information for Egypt and for the region, and for the
> movements for democracy and justice in the region; and not to speak of the
> allegation in the article that he is a Mossad agent”.  I also underlined
> this in my follow-up post.
>
>             In part as a person from outside the region, I also posted it
> specifically asking list members for comments on whether any of this was
> true; for help in understanding the issue.
>
>             In my mind, the issue of his being a Jew or not gains its
> significance here from the extremely polarised geographic and time context
> in which this question has come up; my mentioning this (and where I
> specifically did so in question marks, signifying in the normal way that
> this was what someone, here the author of the article, was saying, and not
> me) had nothing at all to do with making him a better or worse person !
> Can you see the difference ?  If I didn't phrase or frame this well, or
> well enough, I apologise, but this was my intention.
>
>             You’ve asked me why I didn’t check the information before I
> posted the article.  I suppose that this is a possibility, but frankly, we
> are all busy people, trying to do and manage many different things, and I
> chose to post it because I thought that the issue I was raising was
> important at a world level and might get a considered response (as it has,
> from Paula Manduca, and where I am hoping that others may also write in,
> and especially from the region); and where I also thought, as I explained
> in my follow-up note, that the situation at the local level is delicate and
> so this possibility could light a spark.  It certainly didn't strike me
> that my posting what I agree is an angry, accusative article would offend
> people, and especially on relatively liberal lists like this.
>
> At the same time, yes it is hostile to Israel and to Zionism, and to
> Zionist imperialism; but does that also make it anti-Semitic ?  Are they
> the same ?  I don't think so.  Are you (and Ran Greenstein, Harsh Kapoor,
> and Peter Waterman) saying that they are the same ?  I think we should see
> the article in terms of geo-politics.
>
>             In any case, I certainly didn't do the post to offend anyone;
> I did so in a spirit of critical enquiry.  Since it seems to have offended
> some, I'm of course sorry about this, but I’d like you to try and
> understand the spirit in which I did my post.
>
>             I am aware that - as you say – that the world is already
> plagued by anti-Semitism.  I didn't, and don't, mean to add to that.  But
> as list admin on WSFDiscuss, I think we need to talk about all kinds of
> issues that concern movement.  And what concerns me a little is that the
> many other discriminations on which we also get posts – for instance
> against Dalits, against gays – don’t seem to strike anything of the same
> chord; why is this ?  Or in terms of violence against women ?  Why do we
> not also see this kind of outrage and protest on this list against the
> heinous crimes that we get regular posts on, against such peoples ?  Not
> necessarily protesting the posts (as in this case), but about the issue,
> the reality ?  Why is this chord more sensitive than others ?
>
>             Jai
>
> PS : One last point, re your point “Particularly not in the context of
> the WSF”.  I'm not quite sure why you said this, but I assume that you’ve
> done so because I am list admin for WSFDiscuss and posted it there.  I just
> want to clarify that the WSFDiscuss list has now moved on – for a couple of
> years now – far past a concern with the WSF alone; as I explain to people
> who write in to ask about it, it is now “an open and unmoderated forum for
> the exchange of information and views on the experience, practice, and
> theory of social and political movement at any level (local, national,
> regional, and global), including the World Social Forum.  Started in 2005
> as a list around the WSF, it has now – and especially during 2012-2013 -
> matured into a discussion around movement more generically.”
>
>             I’m aware that given this, we need to change the list name.  I
> hope we’ll get to this soon.
>
>             (I now recall that you also once wrote in to me personally,
> off list, expressing concern that some of the posts we were getting on the
> list had nothing to do with the WSF.  I apologise for not replying and
> clarifying, back then.  I hope you can now see why this has been and is the
> case.)
>
>
>
> On May 1 2014, at 5:30 PM, Azril Bacal wrote:
>
>
>
> Jai,
>
> It is completely irrelevant that this general is a "jew."
>
> It is enough that he is a terrible human being.
>
> Being a "jew" per se does not make him a better or worse person!
>
> Why didn`t youi first checked this information yourself first before
> spreading this bit of "news" to a world, already plagued by antisemitism?
>
> I am as much against the Apartheid policies and practices of the Israeli
> Government as you likely are, but not at all interested in vulgar
> anti-jewish antisemitism.
>
> Particularly not in the context of the WSF.
>
> You should humbly apologize to all the progressive "jews" in this list -
> for spreading vulgar anti-jewish propaganda in disguise or not ASAP!!!
>
> Indignado!
>
> /Azril
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Jai Sen <jai.sen at cacim.net> wrote:
>
> Thursday, 1 May 2014
>
> *Worlds in movement, worlds of movement…*
>
> *‘Egyptian ruler General Abd al-Fattah al-Sisi is a Jew’*
>
>             Is this really true ?
>
>             I am forwarding this post not as a comment on whether the
> ruler of Egypt should or should not be of a religion other than Islam, but
> because of what seem immediately to me to be the enormous implications of
> this, for Egypt and for the region, and for the movements for democracy and
> justice in the region.  Not to speak of the allegation here that he is a
> Mossad agent.
>
>             Can someone comment on this, and add some light ?
>
>             JS
>
> fwd
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *Jawed Anwar <seerahwest at gmail.com>
>
> *Subject: [IHRO] Fwd: FW: Veterans Today » Jewish Al-Sisi Runs Egypt; Now
> an Israeli-Occupied Territory...SHAME [1 Attachment]*
>
> *Date: *May 1, 2014 6:33:12 AM GMT+05:30
>
> *To: *IHRO at yahoogroups.com
>
> *Bcc: *IHRO at yahoogroups.com
>
> *Reply-To: *IHRO at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> FYI
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Tahir* <tahirsyed06 at gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:42 PM
> Subject: FW: Veterans Today » Jewish Al-Sisi Runs Egypt; Now an
> Israeli-Occupied Territory...SHAME
> To: Tahir <TahirSyed06 at gmail.com>
>
> <image001.jpg> <http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/barrett/>
>
>    - *Latest Posts:*
>
>
>    - Donald Sterling, Cliven Bundy to start "Racist/Jewish State" in
>    rural Nevada <http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/04/29/sterling-bundy/>
>
>
>    - 9/11, JFK Assassination, Holocaust Debated at US University<http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/04/27/ac-free/>
>
>
>    - Missing Plane Mystery Solved?<http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/04/24/mh370solved/>
>
>   <http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/barrett/>
>
> Monday, September 16th, 2013 | Posted by Kevin Barrett<http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/barrett/>
> Jewish Al-Sisi Runs Egypt; Now an Israeli-Occupied Territory
>
> http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/09/16/al-sisi-jew/
>
>
>
> <image003.jpg><http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/1001420_500196916740637_219213849_n.jpg>*The
> Greater Israel Project – a long-standing Zionist scheme to steal all the
> land between the Nile and the Euphrates – is halfway there.*
>
> They just stole the Nile.
>
> The problem is not that Egypt’s new thug-in-chief, General Abd al-Fattah
> al-Sisi, is a Jew<http://www.crescent-online.net/2013/09/and-the-truth-shall-set-you-free-abu-dharr-4007-articles.html>.
> (His mother, Malikah Titani, is a Moroccan Jew from Asefi, which makes
> al-Sisi a Jew and an automatic citizen of Israel.)
>
> If the Egyptian people want to elect a Jew president in a free and fair
> election – like they elected the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) to the Lower House
> with 73% of the vote, the Upper House with 80% of the vote, the presidency
> with 52% of the vote, and approved the MB Constitution with 64% of the vote
> – that’s fine with me.
>
> The problem is that al-Sisi has concealed his Jewish identity and Israeli
> connections from the Egyptian people…and destroyed their nascent democracy
> through deception and mass murder.
>
> An even bigger problem: al-Sisi is almost certainly a Mossad agent. That
> means al-Sisi’s Egypt is not just a brutal, banana-republic-style
> dictatorship. It is Israeli-occupied territory: The newest and largest
> province of ever-expanding Greater Israel.
>
> No wonder the Israeli ambassador called al-Sisi “a national hero for all
> Jews.”<http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6617-israeli-ambassador-calls-al-sisi-a-qnational-hero-for-all-jewsq>
>
> Al-Sisi’s uncle, Uri Sibagh (sometimes spelled as Sabbagh) served in the
> Jewish Defense League (Hamagein) from 1948 to 1950, made his aliyah to
> Israel, and became a bigwig in Ben Gurion’s political party, serving as the
> secretary of the Israeli Labor Party in Beersheba from 1968 to 1981. Uri’s
> sister – al-Sisi’s mother – presumably emigrated to Egypt on a mission from
> the Mossad. That mission culminated when the Mossad overthrew President
> Morsi and installed its agent al-Sisi in the coup d’état of July 3rd, 2013.
>
> The implication: Al-Sisi has been a lifelong Mossad agent. His mission:
> infiltrate the highest levels of power in an Arab Muslim country. Al-Sisi
> is today’s version of Elie Cohen, who infiltrated the highest levels of
> power in Syria under the name Kamal Amin Thabet before he was exposed and
> hanged in the public square in Damascus.
>
> George H.W. Bush’s famous line, “If the people knew the truth, they would
> chase us down the street and lynch us” applies – in spades – to al-Sisi.
>
> It has been widely reported in the mainstream media, as well as by more
> reliable sources, that al-Sisi has long served as the Egyptian military’s
> liason with Israel. During the coup d’état of July 3rd, al-Sisi was in
> permanent liason by telephone with the Israeli and American militaries<http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-washington-behind-egypts-coup-detat/5341671>.
> (Israel promised its full support, and guaranteed that US aid would not
> be cut off, <http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4418953,00.html> while
> the US waffled.)
>
> The Egyptian coup, especially its propaganda component, had all the
> earmarks of an Israeli black op. A massively financed campaign run through
> Egypt’s Israeli-linked mainstream media (yes, the same folks own big media
> there as here) repeatedly compared President Morsi to Adolf Hitler<http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/07/14/massad/>!
> The fact that “Morsi = Hitler” was the number one talking point of the
> forces behind the coup reveals that those forces were Zionists, not
> Egyptians. Apparently the Zionists couldn’t stop themselves from making
> reflexive Dr. Strangelove-style<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaTR46iU1Do> anti-Hitler
> salutes while they were orchestrating the al-Sisi coup – thereby giving
> their game away.
>
> Since the coup, Israel has been lavishing praise, money, and support on
> al-Sisi.  Mossad agent al-Sisi has virtually declared war on Palestine by
> going all-out to close the Gaza border tunnels that keep the people of Gaza
> alive. Meanwhile, al-Sisi has taken billions of dollars from the Rothschild
> puppets and likely donmeh crypto-Jews who call themselves the “House of
> Saud.”<http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/10/26/the-doenmeh-the-middle-easts-most-whispered-secret-part-ii.html>
>
> Obviously the Zionist-dominated West and its Middle Eastern puppets will
> not allow Muslims to elect relatively honest leaders in free elections.
> Instead, they will use deception and violence to pursue their schemes for
> regional and global domination.
>
> The Egyptian people – who elected the Muslim Brotherhood by a greater
> landslide than any US political party has won in all of American history –
> need a real Islamic revolution to create a genuine democracy. Without it,
> Egypt will indefinitely remain “a boot stamping on a human face –
> forever”…and a permanent province of Greater Israel, ruled by a
> Jewish-Zionist thug who has appointed himself pharaoh, while hiding his
> real background and loyalties.
>
>
> Israeli ambassador calls Al-Sisi a "national hero for all Jews"
>
> Friday, 19 July 2013 17:25
>
>
> https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6617-israeli-ambassador-calls-al-sisi-a-qnational-hero-for-all-jewsq
>
> The Israeli ambassador in Cairo has told a minister in the interim
> government that the people of Israel look upon General Abdul-Fattah Al-Sisi
> as a "national hero". According to Israel Radio, the ambassador rang
> Agriculture Minister Ayman Abu-Hadid to congratulate him on his new post
> and said, "Al-Sisi is not a national hero for Egypt, but for all Jews in
> Israel and around the globe."
>
> Israel is looking forward to the launch of new relationships with Egypt,
> said Yaakov Amitai, as well as joint efforts in the war on terror. His
> mention of "terror" is understood to be an oblique reference to President
> Mohamed Morsi’s supporters protesting against the coup which removed him
> from office.
>
> The two men agreed on the resumption of the work of the Supreme
> Egyptian-Israeli Agricultural Committee. Meetings of the committee are held
> alternately in Cairo and Tel Aviv every six months. They also agreed to
> reactivate the Egyptian branch of the Future Leaders Network, which
> includes Egyptian, Jordanian, Palestinian and Israeli youths.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________
>
> Jai Sen
>
> jai.sen at cacim.net
>
> www.cacim.net / http://www.openword.in
>
> Now based in Ottawa, Canada (+1-613-282 2900), and New Delhi, India (+91-98189
> 11325)
>
> *RECENT PUBLICATIONS :*
>
> Jai Sen and Peter Waterman, eds, 2012 – *World Social Forum : Critical
> Explorations**.* Volume 3 in the *Challenging Empires* series.  New Delhi
> : OpenWord. *Available now as an ebook* - *internationally at*
> http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/ *and in India at *
> http://pothi.com/pothi/book/ebook-jai-sen-world-social-forum-critical-explorations
>
> Jai Sen, ed, 2012 - *Imagining Alternatives*, Book 3 in the *Are Other
> Worlds Possible ?* series.  New Delhi : OpenWord and Daanish Books
>
> *FORTHCOMING PUBLICATIONS  :*
>
> Jai Sen, ed, forthcoming (2013) – *The Movements of Movements : Struggles
> for Other Worlds**.* Volume 4 in the *Challenging Empires* series.  New
> Delhi : OpenWord
>
> *CHECK OUT* *CACIM* @ www.cacim.net, *OpenWord* @ http://www.openword.in,
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>
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>
>
> ______________________________
>
> Jai Sen
>
> jai.sen at cacim.net
>
> www.cacim.net / http://www.openword.in
>
> Now based in Ottawa, Canada (+1-613-282 2900), and New Delhi, India (+91-98189
> 11325)
>
> *RECENT PUBLICATIONS :*
>
> Jai Sen and Peter Waterman, eds, 2012 – *World Social Forum : Critical
> Explorations**.* Volume 3 in the *Challenging Empires* series.  New Delhi
> : OpenWord. *Available now as an ebook* - *internationally at*
> http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/ *and in India at *
> http://pothi.com/pothi/book/ebook-jai-sen-world-social-forum-critical-explorations
>
> Jai Sen, ed, 2012 - *Imagining Alternatives*, Book 3 in the *Are Other
> Worlds Possible ?* series.  New Delhi : OpenWord and Daanish Books
>
> *FORTHCOMING PUBLICATIONS  :*
>
> Jai Sen, ed, forthcoming (2013) – *The Movements of Movements : Struggles
> for Other Worlds**.* Volume 4 in the *Challenging Empires* series.  New
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> Ran Greenstein
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> Paola Manduca, Prof. Genetics
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> Paola Manduca, Prof. Genetics
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-- 
Ran Greenstein
Johannesburg, South Africa
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