[WSF-Discuss] Ukraine Crisis: An Update

book at kaapeli.fi book at kaapeli.fi
Tue May 13 06:21:29 CDT 2014


Sukla,

you say 'peace is doable.' We need to find out how. And how to make the
social forum contribute to nuclear disarmament?

The social forum ought to become the nuclear disarmament forum. (This is
my point.)

It turns out that E.P.Thompson was right about the Exterminism. It has
continued and we are as "addicted" (Gregory Bateson) as before the fall of
the Soviet Union. Admittedly, to a greater or lesser degree, as
individuals. I have read your earlier concerned  postings about India's
nuclear weaponisation.

"The United States must be prepared to disengage itself militarily and to
accept the denuclearization of Europe". - Altiero Spinelli
(http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/23416/altiero-spinelli/atlantic-pact-or-european-unity).

Mikael
















> Dear Mike,
>
> What's your point?
> Ukraine is not relevant to this list? Or, on Ukraine, Kagarlitsky is the
> only authentic voice and only he's to be cited?
> I personally don't agree with either.
>
> Sukla
>
>
>
> On 13 May 2014 13:53, Mikael Book <book at kaapeli.fi> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sukla, thank you.
>>
>> Yes, I am free to take my pick, and I am also dependent on the work of
>> the
>> mainstream journalists in London and New York. Yet I am not sure I need
>> to
>> receive updates from the BBC via this channel (WSF-Discuss), too, as I
>> only
>> need to open my radio receiver to get them anyway.
>>
>> I am not reproaching you for one-sidedness. "We don't see things as they
>> are, we see them as we are." (Anais Nin) The sentence covers the Ukraine
>> Crisis.
>>
>> But how does the Ukraine crisis and our efforts to understand and
>> explain
>> relate to the process we call "social forum" and our original (?)
>> discussions on this list?
>>
>> You mentioned Marx. Good. But between Marx and us is Sarajevo 1914 and
>> what happened thereafter.  Sarajevo is in Bosnia. Kagarlitsky: "The
>> events
>> of the spring of 2014 had to happen sooner or later. The precursors to
>> these developments did not even take place in Ukraine, but in Bosnia,
>> where
>> in defiance of all conventions crowds of enraged workers and unemployed
>> came onto the streets in opposition to the established system, uniting
>> under common slogans and shattering traditional political schemas based
>> on
>> the division of society into ethno-religious groups."
>>
>> Could it be that, like Marx, and like the workers and unemployed in
>> Bosnia, we need to be less conventional, less trendy, less à la mode.
>> Maybe
>> we need to use our internet to discuss the meaning of that word,
>> "peace"?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>> Mikael
>>
>> Mikael Böök * book at kaapeli.fi * gsm +358(0)-44 5511 324 *
>> http://www.kaapeli.fi/book/  * http://blogi.kaapeli.fi/book/ *
>> http://blog.spinellisfootsteps.info/
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 13 May 2014, Sukla Sen wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Mikael Böök,
>>>
>>> While it is true that I've to largely depend on the Western media to
>>> know,
>>> and disseminate, what's happening over there (Marx was known to have
>>> spent
>>> much of his time poring over literature in the British Library in
>>> London -
>>> the reason being too obvious), it appears that you've completely missed
>>> my
>>> occasional brief forwarding notes, let alone detailed comments from
>>> various
>>> Leftwing sources including from within Ukraine.
>>>
>>> The fact is that there are very many divergent voices emanating from
>>> within
>>> the Left - not one.
>>> You're free to take your pick - from amongst these, or from elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Sukla
>>>
>>>
>>> On 13 May 2014 13:03, Mikael Book <book at kaapeli.fi> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear Sukla Sen,
>>>>
>>>> your posting is (despite what reads on its subject line) only an
>>>> update
>>>> of
>>>> the views of the mainistream Western Press. For informed and balanced
>>>> views
>>>> on the Ukraine Crisis we need to read Boris Kagarlitsky and Volodymyr
>>>> Ishchenko in Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal and
>>>> similar
>>>> less widely spread publications.
>>>>
>>>> Kagarlitsky: "The arguments of the Kremlin in this dispute have not
>>>> worked, and cannot work, for the simple reason that Western
>>>> politicians
>>>> for
>>>> the present are not especially interested in what official Russia is
>>>> thinking or doing. These politicians know perfectly well that there is
>>>> no
>>>> Russian invasion, and this, precisely, is the main international
>>>> problem
>>>> for them. To admit as much means admitting that the government in Kiev
>>>> has
>>>> gone to war on its own people. To speak of the Donetsk Peoples
>>>> Republic
>>>> as
>>>> an independent political phenomenon in impossible, since this would
>>>> require
>>>> posing the question of the reasons for the popular protest, and
>>>> listing
>>>> its
>>>> demands. The talk of Kremlin agents and of the ubiquitous Russian
>>>> troops
>>>> who are impossible to discover, but who have occupied close to half of
>>>> Ukraine without firing a shot or even showing themselves on Ukrainian
>>>> territory is playing the same propaganda role against the Donetsk
>>>> republic
>>>> as was played in the anti-Bolshevik propaganda of 1917 by stories of
>>>> German
>>>> spies and of money from the German General Staff."
>>>>
>>>> Ischenko: "If the events will lead to full-scale civil war in Ukraine,
>>>> and
>>>> then to full-scale Russian intervention, and then to the Third World
>>>> War,
>>>> who will we need to blame for the end of the human civilization? The
>>>> crazy,
>>>> irrational capitalist system that inevitably produces competing
>>>> imperialisms. This is the root of the problem not only for Ukraine,
>>>> but
>>>> for
>>>> the entire world."
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I should like to add that Capitalism is not the *only*
>>>> "root
>>>> of the problem" just like the atomic armaments are not *exclusively* a
>>>> product of the class struggle.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, when did we last have a discussion about the World Social
>>>> Forum
>>>> on
>>>> this list? How does the Ukraine crisis relate to our *main subject*?
>>>>
>>>> Is *peace* at all one of the "actionable themes" or "axes" of the
>>>> social
>>>> forum?
>>>>
>>>> Or is *peace* obsolete as a concept and a goal of social activism?
>>>>
>>>> No, it is not:
>>>>
>>>> THE PEACE, THE INTERNET AND THE LIBRARY (Sarajevo 6-9 June)
>>>>
>>>> Has the Internet created the prerequiste for a more enduring world
>>>> peace?
>>>> How can the library contribute to "the sympathetic world spirit"
>>>> (Bowerman
>>>> 1915) which will certainly also be needed?
>>>>
>>>> These questions are to be discussed against the background of the
>>>> recent
>>>> NetMundial-conference on "Internet governance" in Sao Paulo.
>>>>
>>>> More about Peace Event Sarajevo via http://p2014.eu and about the
>>>> workshop Peace and the Internet via http://is.gd/KluLtD
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Mikael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mikael Böök * book at kaapeli.fi * gsm +358(0)-44 5511 324 *
>>>> http://www.kaapeli.fi/book/  * http://blogi.kaapeli.fi/book/ *
>>>> http://blog.spinellisfootsteps.info/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 13 May 2014, Sukla Sen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27386838
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 13 May 2014 Last updated at 06:11
>>>>>
>>>>> Ukraine crisis: Germany launches fresh diplomatic bid
>>>>> Armed activists patrolled a rally in Luhansk after the referendum on
>>>>> self-rule
>>>>>
>>>>> Germany's Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier is due in Kiev
>>>>> amid
>>>>> fresh attempts to find a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine crisis.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, pro-Russia activists in the east declared a separate state
>>>>> which
>>>>> wanted to join Russia after holding votes on self-rule on Sunday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Earlier, a separatist leader called on Russia to "absorb" the eastern
>>>>> Ukrainian region of Donetsk.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kiev, the US and EU say the referendums in Donetsk and Luhansk were
>>>>> illegal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moscow annexed Ukraine's southern autonomous republic of Crimea in
>>>>> March
>>>>> following a controversial referendum, and Kiev fears a similar
>>>>> outcome
>>>>> in
>>>>> Donetsk, Luhansk and parts of southern Ukraine.
>>>>>
>>>>> The BBC's Richard Galpin reports from Donetsk on the fears of some
>>>>> pro-unity residents
>>>>>
>>>>> Russia has called for the results of Sunday's vote to be
>>>>> "implemented".
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, armed separatists remain in control of many official
>>>>> buildings
>>>>> across eastern Ukraine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr Steinmeier, who attended a meeting of EU foreign ministers in
>>>>> Brussels
>>>>> on Monday, reiterated that he considers the referendums illegal,
>>>>> adding:
>>>>> "We cannot, and must not, take it seriously."
>>>>>
>>>>> His spokesman, Martin Schaefer, said Tuesday's trip was to support a
>>>>> national "round table" under the auspices of the Organisation for
>>>>> Security
>>>>> and Co-operation (OSCE).
>>>>>
>>>>> The OSCE later issued a statement saying Russian President Vladimir
>>>>> Putin
>>>>> was "supportive" of its roadmap to defuse the crisis in Ukraine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr Steinmeier has engaged in months of diplomacy over the crisis
>>>>> while
>>>>> German Chancellor Angela Merkel has held repeated phone calls with
>>>>> President Putin.
>>>>>
>>>>> German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier hopes to mediate in
>>>>> the
>>>>> Ukraine crisis
>>>>>
>>>>> Separatists in Luhansk declared a "sovereign state" after the
>>>>> referendum
>>>>> The Ukrainian army has set up checkpoints around Luhansk and other
>>>>> eastern
>>>>> cities
>>>>>
>>>>> The EU foreign ministers added 13 people and two businesses to its
>>>>> sanctions list for "undermining or threatening" Ukraine's
>>>>> sovereignty.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those singled out include President Putin's first deputy chief of
>>>>> staff,
>>>>> Vyacheslav Volodin; the self-declared mayor of Sloviansk, Vyacheslav
>>>>> Ponomaryov; and two Crimean companies.
>>>>>
>>>>> More than 60 individuals now face EU travel bans and asset freezes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Election pledge
>>>>>
>>>>> Germany, France and the UK also suggested that Russia would be
>>>>> further
>>>>> punished if it undermined Ukraine's planned presidential elections on
>>>>> 25
>>>>> May.
>>>>>
>>>>> A joint statement said the EU would "pay particular attention to all
>>>>> parties' attitude and behaviour towards the holding of free and fair
>>>>> presidential elections when deciding about possible future measures".
>>>>>
>>>>> Separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk say 89% and 96% respectively voted
>>>>> in
>>>>> favour of "self-rule" in the referendums.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pro-Russia activists in Luhansk declared independence after the
>>>>> referendum
>>>>> there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Self-declared Donetsk People's Republic leader Denis Pushilin urged
>>>>> Moscow
>>>>> to listen to the "will of the people".
>>>>>
>>>>> He said he was not calling for Russian military intervention, but
>>>>> that
>>>>> "peacekeepers" may be needed. Moscow has not responded to his
>>>>> comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nato believes some 40,000 Russian troops are deployed near Ukraine's
>>>>> border, although Moscow says they have been pulled back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Peace Is Doable
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Peace Is Doable
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Peace Is Doable
> _______________________________________________
> ** WSFDiscuss is an open and unmoderated forum for the exchange of
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> Social Forum at any level (local, national, regional, and global) and on
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